Using double bass pedals; is it cheating?

[Tamadude]

Sorry for another geek thread, but Pluto's heel thread compelled me to post this.....

The SC signature kit came with an Iron Cobra double pedal. It is currently un-installed on my kit, for a couple reasons. Firstly, ergonomics. The rod that connects the two pedals is not long enough. I need it right beside the hat pedal, but it sits too far away for me. I would venture to guess that our STEWART had his rod custom lengthened (easy, Floozies) by Tama. I hear he has some clout over there.

Secondly, I'm a purist, so I've always shunned the double pedal, and the double bass drum. I only got it because it's what was included in the hardware kit. I'm probably going to get rid of it in favor of a single pedal. Not to knock anyone who loves them, but I just think hearing a single pedal that sounds like two is more impressive. Using it for crescendos and end notes is one thing; but using it for doubles and trips is taking the easy way out, IMO. Unless you play death-metal where you're playing 16th notes or faster on the kicks! \m/

Opinions?

[TheEqualizer]

Didn't the double bass pedal come about when people went from double bass drum sets to single but then wanted to keep a similar sound? In that case, I would say its ok.

[GinaSuperCat]

I want a DW double pedal first and foremost as a way to even out the feet (same reason I play the hats with my left hand, though I'm a righty, to force time keeping with 'the claw' as one of my instructors put it)...

Turns out the left foot is really the claw in this operation, for me, and while the hi hat foot really challenges the left foot to work, it's not isomorphic to the way my right foot works the bass pedal...

Then I can practice woodshedding rudiments even Stone with the feet and other cool things...
I think it'd be a fun way to really get that foot to catch up by playing both on the same pedal, so to speak...just like with the hands!

[plutonic]

[quote="GinaSuperCat"]

Turns out the left foot is really the claw in this operation, for me, and while the hi hat foot really challenges the left foot to work, it's not isomorphic to the way my right foot works the bass pedal...

[/quote]

Loud and clear. I've been thinking the same.

It's not cheating. It's another tool. You should be able to lengthen/shorten the rod between pedals, I believe....

[smudge]

Tamadude. Does it sound good? (I appreciate that this is a somewhat theoretical exercise.)

If yes - is good.

If no - not.

Apologies if that is overly simplistic. Just strikes me that the mechanics of how a sound is created is secondary in importance to the sound itself.

[animal]

Just a thought...

If you are using 2 bass drums that are tuned very close, wouldn't using 1 bass drum with a double pedal yield the same result?

If you tune the 2 bass drums differently then having a single BD with double kick pedal would do nothing for you.

I really don't see having a double kick pedal as cheating. Another tool in the bag of tricks, and not another bd to lug around.

[animal]

[quote="Tamadude"]Sorry for another geek thread, but Pluto's heel thread compelled me to post this.....

The SC signature kit came with an Iron Cobra double pedal. It is currently un-installed on my kit, for a couple reasons. Firstly, ergonomics. The rod that connects the two pedals is not long enough. I need it right beside the hat pedal, but it sits too far away for me. I would venture to guess that our STEWART had his rod custom lengthened (easy, Floozies) by Tama. I hear he has some clout over there.
[/quote]

TD are you trying to setup your pedals like this?

http://www.tamadrum.co.jp/artist/images/33/09.jpg

[Spec A!]

I used to feel the same way about being a purist with the double pedal. I don't use it to cheat, only to round out certain things. Honestly I hardly ever use it. Back when I was in a band I never used it on original stuff, only on covers that allowed me to play the beats like the original version.

I have no beef with single kick with two pedals over two separate kicks. I sometimes want a remote operated hat next to my ride- the more the merrier in my land of drums says me!

[Laz]

I personally think there's alot that can be done with double kick pedals... they're usually used for that lift in intensity in a piece of music, be it rock, metal, jazz fusion etc... alot of legendary drummers have done impressive and wonderful things with double bass/double pedals... everyone from Gene Hoagland to Derek Roddy to Charlie Benante, Dave Lombardo and Lars Ulrich to Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl to Terry Bozzio to Billy Cobham all the way back to one of the originators - if not the originator - Louis Bellson (RIP btw)... also alot of newer guys like Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Virgil Donati are doing really cool stuff with double pedals these days. Of course I'd be remiss if I neglected to mention you-know-who going through his Joey Jordison/Slipknot-inspired double kick phase of late (we got more than plenty of it on the reunion tour). It's all in what you want to do in whatever style of music you're playing at the moment; there's probably not much you would do with double kick in, say, a Bossa Nova or a ballad, but it certainly has its uses...

I myself have been going through a single pedal phase for the past few months... just to concentrate on how much I can do with my right foot before going back to attaching the second kick pedal... perhaps this is in some way the point you're trying to make (also oft-quoted fact that John Bonham didn't need double kick etc...) either way cheers!

Laz

[Chatchka]

I'm going to put my vote with NOT CHEATING. Why not embrace new technologies? However, if you (generalized you) are using it to cheat, then you are cheating. If you are using it to create something new or interesting, then why not kick ass with both feet, Tamadude.

If I had a double pedal, you know I would probably forget that my hihat went up and down. I would just leave them closed and have fun with the kick.

I did pick up the latest Slipknot out of curiosity -- the Maestro can't possible be wrong, right?! I have to say that I dig it. It is definitely out of the scope of the music that I would normally listen to, but I enjoy the sound. I love how drum driven it is. The more I play, the more annoyed (read: totally pissed) I become with music where the drums are lost way back in the mix.

And, like Stewart, I enjoy the looks I get when I pick up my daughter from school with some Slipknot raging out of the car window. MWAhahahahahahah!

Gina, are you playing with your drums set up reversed, or just playing hats with your left? Arms uncrossed?

[plutonic]

[quote="Chatchka"]
I'm going to put my vote with NOT CHEATING. Why not embrace new technologies?
[/quote]

Exactly. If two pedals is cheating, then how is ONE pedal not cheating?
I'm sure that's what some thought when the first Bass Drum pedal was introduced.

I'm picturing some New Orleans line drum bass drummer sweating his next gig a little over one hundred years ago.

[falloutmike]

only necessary if the MUSIC calls for it....

not because you can.

[policerule]

[quote="smudge"]T
Apologies if that is overly simplistic. Just strikes me that the mechanics of how a sound is created is secondary in importance to the sound itself.[/quote]


^ my thoughts exactly, but what would I know

[Tamadude]

[quote="Laz"]... just to concentrate on how much I can do with my right foot before going back to attaching the second kick pedal... perhaps this is in some way the point you're trying to make (also oft-quoted fact that John Bonham didn't need double kick etc...) [/quote]

Laz, like usual, you hit the nail bang on. I almost used that same Bonzo line when I made the initial post. I kind of feel like I should master a single pedal before using the double. Otherwise I may get into a habit of using the double for things that can be done with the single.

[quote="Chatchka"]If I had a double pedal, you know I would probably forget that my hihat went up and down. I would just leave them closed and have fun with the kick.[/quote]

I'd be tempted to do that too, but that's too Lars Ulrich for me. He never uses a ride either. Nothing against Metallica, but I love the hats and the ride. I blame Copeland for that.

[quote="animalTD are you trying to setup your pedals like this?

http://www.tamadrum.co.jp/artist/images/33/09.jpg[/quote]

YES!

I had no idea that the rod extended at both sides. I never really looked at it that closely. That should solve the ergonomics problem. But I'm still not sure if I want to use it yet. My doubles and triples are now starting to come around nicely and don't want to hamper my progress by being tempted to use the double pedal for those same doubles and triples. If that makes any sense.

Thanks for all the input, peeps.

[thedaner]

[quote="falloutmike"]only necessary if the MUSIC calls for it....

not because you can.[/quote]

Thank you. I've worked w/drummers lately that want to use it because they can, and they ruin a groove oriented rock tune or destroy a simple Motown song.

Personally, I'm not a fan but I see their place in more metal based music. I don't think Bonham would've ever used it because he really played like a Motown/Soul drummer; it's just that he was a big guy, and had a big kit/sound. He really didn't hit hard or bash.