Denver Download checkit
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by Krokodyle on 22 Jun 2007 21:48
>> Props for wanting to give props where due.
True, but it's not just that. People like myself and tj7 (and the taper who shared this on Dime) have worked hard to both eliminate bootlegging for profit, as well as keeping mp3s out of circulation. We've both shared items from our own live show collection to hundreds of other collectors out there, in a lossless, 'just as it is' format. Mp3s, convenient though they may be, are just not as good sounding (and even downright terrible depending on the settings when made) due to the nature of their compression scheme.
Don't fault tj7 for being passionate about trying to keep mp3s out of the general circulation. Even the most basic computer user can make their own if they really want mp3s of their music. We've both (as well as many, many others) spent our time, energy, and bandwidth to make sure that these recordings are kept free, complete, and lossless.
To be honest, I didn't see the taper/poster of the original files over at dime request that mp3s *not* be made from this recording, but it's a general assumption.
If only The Police (& their suits) had the foresight to follow Genesis' live CD plans (http://www.themusic.com/encore/genesis2007/). They're basically releasing every show on their tour on CD, starting at $30 a show.
>> As soon as you see the words "Mini Disc" you can forget all about "lossless."
Interesting point, I don't know much about MD live recording setups.
>> Things are heating up.
Now they MUST come back to the West Coast...I wanna see them in the groove!!!
True, but it's not just that. People like myself and tj7 (and the taper who shared this on Dime) have worked hard to both eliminate bootlegging for profit, as well as keeping mp3s out of circulation. We've both shared items from our own live show collection to hundreds of other collectors out there, in a lossless, 'just as it is' format. Mp3s, convenient though they may be, are just not as good sounding (and even downright terrible depending on the settings when made) due to the nature of their compression scheme.
Don't fault tj7 for being passionate about trying to keep mp3s out of the general circulation. Even the most basic computer user can make their own if they really want mp3s of their music. We've both (as well as many, many others) spent our time, energy, and bandwidth to make sure that these recordings are kept free, complete, and lossless.
To be honest, I didn't see the taper/poster of the original files over at dime request that mp3s *not* be made from this recording, but it's a general assumption.
If only The Police (& their suits) had the foresight to follow Genesis' live CD plans (http://www.themusic.com/encore/genesis2007/). They're basically releasing every show on their tour on CD, starting at $30 a show.
>> As soon as you see the words "Mini Disc" you can forget all about "lossless."
Interesting point, I don't know much about MD live recording setups.
>> Things are heating up.
Now they MUST come back to the West Coast...I wanna see them in the groove!!!
"Darkness makes me fumble...for a key...to a door...that's wiiiide open..."
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Krokodyle - Posts: 940
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by pdq4646 on 22 Jun 2007 22:35
Krokodyle, Thank you for the explanation. I just cut and pasted the download off of the Police recordings section. I was thinking from a musical standpoint that they are playing with more passion and things seemed to be heading in the right direction. It had nothing to do with the recording. I enjoyed the performance. Cheers.
- pdq4646
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by Krokodyle on 23 Jun 2007 00:28
Your heart was in the right place. And it's not your mp3 post, you just linked it. And truthfully, most people who listen to digital music are listening to mp3s, for better or worse. Compared to the size of original audio files, mp3s are TINY in comparison, allowing someone to fit many albums' worth of songs into the size it takes for a single music CD's data.
It is true you can make mp3s sound *very good*, depending on the bitrate & other settings (which also make the files larger), but you're still losing some of the recording. They're ideal for portable equipment & similar, but considering that the price per KB/MB/GB keeps dropping (as well as the size of the drive/media itself), it won't be long before portable lossless collections become really viable.
You'll have to forgive me and tj7's zeal when it comes to these things. We are passionate about The Police, (usually) passionate about sharing/trading shows, and passionate about keeping the quality intact. It's just that too many times these shows are taken, converted to mp3, and passed off without credit to the original taper and/or seeder. Yes, the latter is a small thing, but for us, it's important. We really get nothing monetary from sharing shows like this , apart from the warm fuzzy feeling we get when our shares are appreciated AND getting credit where it's due (if anything, WE are paying to share these, in the form of our high-speed internet connection and bandwidth).
On another note, during the Smashing Pumpkins mini-"tour" this summer, they are INVITING people to come tape/record their shows. I'm not a fan, but it's good to see that some people do 'get it'. Considering how easy it is to make CDs for every show these days, I'm surprised that The Police didn't follow Genesis' lead.
(...and tj7, forgive me if I spoke for you without asking first. Feel free to comment/remark/etc. if you see fit.)
It is true you can make mp3s sound *very good*, depending on the bitrate & other settings (which also make the files larger), but you're still losing some of the recording. They're ideal for portable equipment & similar, but considering that the price per KB/MB/GB keeps dropping (as well as the size of the drive/media itself), it won't be long before portable lossless collections become really viable.
You'll have to forgive me and tj7's zeal when it comes to these things. We are passionate about The Police, (usually) passionate about sharing/trading shows, and passionate about keeping the quality intact. It's just that too many times these shows are taken, converted to mp3, and passed off without credit to the original taper and/or seeder. Yes, the latter is a small thing, but for us, it's important. We really get nothing monetary from sharing shows like this , apart from the warm fuzzy feeling we get when our shares are appreciated AND getting credit where it's due (if anything, WE are paying to share these, in the form of our high-speed internet connection and bandwidth).
On another note, during the Smashing Pumpkins mini-"tour" this summer, they are INVITING people to come tape/record their shows. I'm not a fan, but it's good to see that some people do 'get it'. Considering how easy it is to make CDs for every show these days, I'm surprised that The Police didn't follow Genesis' lead.
(...and tj7, forgive me if I spoke for you without asking first. Feel free to comment/remark/etc. if you see fit.)
"Darkness makes me fumble...for a key...to a door...that's wiiiide open..."
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Krokodyle - Posts: 940
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by New Zealand Promoter on 23 Jun 2007 01:20
[quote="NoOneYouKnow"]Don't kid yourself. As soon as you see the words "Mini Disc" you can forget all about "lossless."
[/quote]
and what do you think happens to that recording when it is archived as a complete FLAC, WAV or AIFF set for listening to on CDR, and then it is coverted to mp3? LOSS happens, my friend.
If the source is MD, converting it to mp3 introduces further loss.
No worries, Krok, I am glad at least someone else out there 'gets it'. This isn't bootlegging, it's risking your butt to make a recording and then share it. When people redistribute without credit to the taper and in a format that introduces loss to the audio quality, it gets my hackles up. Too many tapers out there from the early days have already got annoyed enough by lack of gratitude and / or respect from this meat market of lossy recirculation that they now refuse to share anything.
Just have some consideration folks, that all.
PEACE.
[/quote]
and what do you think happens to that recording when it is archived as a complete FLAC, WAV or AIFF set for listening to on CDR, and then it is coverted to mp3? LOSS happens, my friend.
If the source is MD, converting it to mp3 introduces further loss.
No worries, Krok, I am glad at least someone else out there 'gets it'. This isn't bootlegging, it's risking your butt to make a recording and then share it. When people redistribute without credit to the taper and in a format that introduces loss to the audio quality, it gets my hackles up. Too many tapers out there from the early days have already got annoyed enough by lack of gratitude and / or respect from this meat market of lossy recirculation that they now refuse to share anything.
Just have some consideration folks, that all.
PEACE.
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New Zealand Promoter - Posts: 835
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by pdq4646 on 23 Jun 2007 01:52
I have one concert from Melbourne 81. I don't think a week has gone by in the last ten years that I haven't listened to it. I thank you for your time and efforts. I had no Idea that this was such a hot topic. I understand where you are coming from and I'm on board. Thanks for the heads up.
- pdq4646
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by NoOneYouKnow on 23 Jun 2007 02:18
[quote]and what do you think happens to that recording when it is archived as a complete FLAC, WAV or AIFF set for listening to on CDR, and then it is coverted to mp3? LOSS happens, my friend. [/quote]
Guess you couldn't figure out that I was saying that MiniDisc recordings are lossy as hell to begin with.
Standing in the middle of a noisy crowd and recording with whatever equipment you managed to sneak under your clothes... and you're talking about preserving quality? Come on.
Guess you couldn't figure out that I was saying that MiniDisc recordings are lossy as hell to begin with.
Standing in the middle of a noisy crowd and recording with whatever equipment you managed to sneak under your clothes... and you're talking about preserving quality? Come on.
- NoOneYouKnow
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by Three over Four on 23 Jun 2007 02:54
Thanks Krok & tj7, I really do appreciate the explanation on lossless and bootlegging both of which I was mostly clueless about until now. I agree though that it's quite lame they aren't offering live recordings of all their shows....seriously, how hard would it be for them to do? Pearl Jam sure did an awesome thing for their fans and I'd love to see the same from our boys.
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by Krokodyle on 23 Jun 2007 02:59
>> Pearl Jam sure did an awesome thing for their fans and I'd love to see the same from our boys.
Pearl Jam not only did it, but they also did it years ago, when the cost was more prohibitive. These days the printing of the inserts costs much more than the media!
Pearl Jam not only did it, but they also did it years ago, when the cost was more prohibitive. These days the printing of the inserts costs much more than the media!
"Darkness makes me fumble...for a key...to a door...that's wiiiide open..."
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Krokodyle - Posts: 940
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by New Zealand Promoter on 23 Jun 2007 03:57
[quote="NoOneYouKnow"]
Guess you couldn't figure out that I was saying that MiniDisc recordings are lossy as hell to begin with.
Standing in the middle of a noisy crowd and recording with whatever equipment you managed to sneak under your clothes... and you're talking about preserving quality? Come on.[/quote]
Thanks for demonstrating the kind of complete pig-ignorance that warrants the kind of respose I am about to give.
"Guess you couldn't figure out that I was saying that MiniDisc recordings are lossy as hell to begin with."
well, DUH. I will repeat my statement, in different words, which may resonate more effectively within your befuddled comprehension of the topic at hand:
What do you think happens to a recording - ANY - recording, whether it was recorded with a tape deck, lossless wav recorder, ipod mp3 recorder or a fucking wax cylinder, when it gets converted from its WAV archive origins to mp3? What happens, my friend? What gets introduced?
So far all of the MD recordings that have surfaced have been archived as full AIFF or WAV files, then archived as FLAC or shn. This is the standard format for sharing the source to begin with at most torrent sites. What happens when someone takes that archive and encodes it to mp3?
That's right, IT LOSES FIDELITY. It does not matter that the source may have been an mp3 recorder. if the files are converted to CDR friendly files then converted to mp3 you are changing those files for the worse.
capiche?
...and listen bucko, have you even HEARD a decent AUD recording? Try this on for size:
http://tj7.org/police_samples/1983-14-1 ... sample.mp3
Recorded with whatever equipment the taper managed to sneak in under their clothes 24 YEARS AGO.
Have you heard 'Josephines' crystal clear AUD recording, which is up at dime yet? using whatever equipment she managed to sneak in under her clothes? No? Then shut the hell up and make sure you know what you are talking about before tarring all AUD recordings with the same stinking, filthy brush. Although, judging by recent trends, you'll soon get to hear her recording via an mp3 archive uploaded to gigasize which will most likely not even include a text file acknowledging her efforts or noting what equipment she used.
sorry for ranting at you 'nooneyouknow' - it's nothing personal, really, i just get fired up about huge generalisations. i used to be like you, up until recently, when i discovered how good AUD recordings can be. i am hoping you might feel the same about them once you have heard how good they can be.
Guess you couldn't figure out that I was saying that MiniDisc recordings are lossy as hell to begin with.
Standing in the middle of a noisy crowd and recording with whatever equipment you managed to sneak under your clothes... and you're talking about preserving quality? Come on.[/quote]
Thanks for demonstrating the kind of complete pig-ignorance that warrants the kind of respose I am about to give.
"Guess you couldn't figure out that I was saying that MiniDisc recordings are lossy as hell to begin with."
well, DUH. I will repeat my statement, in different words, which may resonate more effectively within your befuddled comprehension of the topic at hand:
What do you think happens to a recording - ANY - recording, whether it was recorded with a tape deck, lossless wav recorder, ipod mp3 recorder or a fucking wax cylinder, when it gets converted from its WAV archive origins to mp3? What happens, my friend? What gets introduced?
So far all of the MD recordings that have surfaced have been archived as full AIFF or WAV files, then archived as FLAC or shn. This is the standard format for sharing the source to begin with at most torrent sites. What happens when someone takes that archive and encodes it to mp3?
That's right, IT LOSES FIDELITY. It does not matter that the source may have been an mp3 recorder. if the files are converted to CDR friendly files then converted to mp3 you are changing those files for the worse.
capiche?
...and listen bucko, have you even HEARD a decent AUD recording? Try this on for size:
http://tj7.org/police_samples/1983-14-1 ... sample.mp3
Recorded with whatever equipment the taper managed to sneak in under their clothes 24 YEARS AGO.
Have you heard 'Josephines' crystal clear AUD recording, which is up at dime yet? using whatever equipment she managed to sneak in under her clothes? No? Then shut the hell up and make sure you know what you are talking about before tarring all AUD recordings with the same stinking, filthy brush. Although, judging by recent trends, you'll soon get to hear her recording via an mp3 archive uploaded to gigasize which will most likely not even include a text file acknowledging her efforts or noting what equipment she used.
sorry for ranting at you 'nooneyouknow' - it's nothing personal, really, i just get fired up about huge generalisations. i used to be like you, up until recently, when i discovered how good AUD recordings can be. i am hoping you might feel the same about them once you have heard how good they can be.
Last edited by New Zealand Promoter on 23 Jun 2007 04:03, edited 1 time in total.
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New Zealand Promoter - Posts: 835
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by New Zealand Promoter on 23 Jun 2007 04:01
[quote="Three over Four"]Thanks Krok & tj7, I really do appreciate the explanation on lossless and bootlegging both of which I was mostly clueless about until now. I agree though that it's quite lame they aren't offering live recordings of all their shows....seriously, how hard would it be for them to do? Pearl Jam sure did an awesome thing for their fans and I'd love to see the same from our boys.[/quote]
i agree - it's strange actually, i mean what a potential cash cow for the band. genesis are doing it, and all they are doing are the same stock performances of the same songs they have been doing the same stock performances of during their last two world tours. except for half of them they have had to tune down a step so phil can hit the high notes. at least the police didn't use the same set designer.
i agree - it's strange actually, i mean what a potential cash cow for the band. genesis are doing it, and all they are doing are the same stock performances of the same songs they have been doing the same stock performances of during their last two world tours. except for half of them they have had to tune down a step so phil can hit the high notes. at least the police didn't use the same set designer.
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New Zealand Promoter - Posts: 835
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by New Zealand Promoter on 23 Jun 2007 04:09
happy times happy times! the police have reformed! yay! shut the hell up tj7, you rant too much! get a life! gaaaahhhh! happy times! 
i think i had too much coffee. i need to eat something. sorry for being a ranty nutbar....
i think i had too much coffee. i need to eat something. sorry for being a ranty nutbar....-
New Zealand Promoter - Posts: 835
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by DirtyMartini on 23 Jun 2007 04:15
We love you, tj7. . . . Go to your happy place. . . . It's all right. . . . Everything will be all right. . . . Shhhhh . . .
Dramatic highlights & a unique musical cosmos. Guaranteed.
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DirtyMartini - Posts: 9622
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by NoOneYouKnow on 23 Jun 2007 12:56
Whatever. Shout all you want. I promise you won't make me cry.
You keep talking about making an mp3 of a MiniDisc recording. Right, that will introduce loss, but when you record direct to MD, you've already lost a TON of data.
Check this out;
A regular CD holds 74 minutes worth of music in 740MB worth of space. A MiniDisc holds the same 74 minutes, but puts it in a 160MB space. How do they do it? Easy - they just throw out more than 4/5ths of the data as you record to it. There. LOTS of room now.
So, yeah - making a .WAV or .AIFF or .PCM, etc file will prevent further loss, but now you have a 740MB file containing only 160MB of actual data - all in the interest of preserving the quality of a source file that sucks anyway. In a case like this, loss from a decent 192kbps mp3 file is negligible.
I'm no fan of mp3 files, but I'm not a fan of overkill, either.
No, wait - yes I am.
You keep talking about making an mp3 of a MiniDisc recording. Right, that will introduce loss, but when you record direct to MD, you've already lost a TON of data.
Check this out;
A regular CD holds 74 minutes worth of music in 740MB worth of space. A MiniDisc holds the same 74 minutes, but puts it in a 160MB space. How do they do it? Easy - they just throw out more than 4/5ths of the data as you record to it. There. LOTS of room now.
So, yeah - making a .WAV or .AIFF or .PCM, etc file will prevent further loss, but now you have a 740MB file containing only 160MB of actual data - all in the interest of preserving the quality of a source file that sucks anyway. In a case like this, loss from a decent 192kbps mp3 file is negligible.
I'm no fan of mp3 files, but I'm not a fan of overkill, either.
No, wait - yes I am.
- NoOneYouKnow
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by Dietmar on 23 Jun 2007 13:28
tj7 - that LA recording really sounds great!
I heard guitar effects which I didn't hear live.
DON'T is way better now.
I don't know if EVERY LITTLE THING's drums in the chorus are intended to be so. Stewart changes from fast to toms and back...
Dietmar
I heard guitar effects which I didn't hear live.
DON'T is way better now.
I don't know if EVERY LITTLE THING's drums in the chorus are intended to be so. Stewart changes from fast to toms and back...
Dietmar
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Dietmar - Posts: 1728
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- Location: at work ...
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