My Police Best Drum track poll!

[nathanarizona]

Blueboy - just wanted to say: excellent post. Pretty much in agreement all the way around.

[Wait and See]

I think it goes without saying that they started off on the first two albums with a pretty low budget approach, and were able to put more into it as time went on. It also goes without saying that the band had a major role in the production of the albums. It's hard to know how much of the change in their sound on record was outside influence and how much was their own doing, but I stand by my opinion that Zenyatta (maybe with Regatta close by) is their best sounding album.

My point was that when it comes to capturing and mixing live instruments, particularly bass and drums, one of the hardest things to do is to get a perfect balance of crispness and low end. When you get it just right (at least what I consider just right), you get what I think is best described as a "punchy" sound. It moves the low end of your speakers and you can feel it in your gut, but it isn't muddy or rumbling. The recording and mix on Zenyatta achieves that better than any of their other albums IMO, and that's why I like it, although you could argue Stew's drums sound a little thin.

I think Ghost sounds kind of muddy, cluttered, and even sloppy. Synchronicity sounds like mass-produced, plastic-sealed, pre-fabricated pop/rock aimed squarely at Top 40 radio. As for Padgham, his next big project after Synchronicity was Phil Collins's "No Jacket Required". I mean...I think that speaks for itself. Not that it's a bad sounding record, but it is pretty much the epitome of heavily-produced, mechanical pop from that era.

[Donna]

[quote="DirtyMartini"]Damn, Spec A! -- this poll is like Sophie's Choice!

And amen, W&S, and bravo.[/quote]

too funny - and I agree, but if I have to pick one of the above, I'm gonna go with Murder by Numbers - very, very tasty!

[Spec A!]

Driven to Tears has always been my most favorite drum track of his. But the rest of these are so freaking close for me though, I was curious to see what the rest of you felt. Seems like I'm not alone.

Stewart- comments?

[Divemistress of the Dark]

I think Stew's mentioned in interviews he's fond of his work on "One World," (which I believe was captured in one take). It's easy to see why.

[ghostinthepolice]

'Synchronicity sounds like mass-produced, plastic-sealed, pre-fabricated pop/rock aimed squarely at Top 40 radio'

[Wait and See]

>>>'Synchronicity sounds like mass-produced, plastic-sealed, pre-fabricated pop/rock aimed squarely at Top 40 radio'

<<<

To clarify: I was talking about the production on the album, not the songs or the performances.

[DirtyMartini]

[quote="Donna"]too funny - and I agree, but if I have to pick one of the above, I'm gonna go with Murder by Numbers - very, very tasty![/quote]

Heh. Donna, I cheated. I couldn't make up my mind between Murder, Driven, Regatta, and CSLY-live, so I rationalized that voting for the last is like casting two votes (for CSLY and Regatta at the same time). But throwing it to Murder sure was tempting.

[georgygirl]

[quote]>>>'Synchronicity sounds like mass-produced, plastic-sealed, pre-fabricated pop/rock aimed squarely at Top 40 radio'

[/quote]

Anyway, I like it. For sure I am just another population statistic!

[blueboy]

[quote="Wait and See"]>>>'Synchronicity sounds like mass-produced, plastic-sealed, pre-fabricated pop/rock aimed squarely at Top 40 radio'


To clarify: I was talking about the production on the album, not the songs or the performances.[/quote]

While you of course are entitled to your opinions...it might be a good idea to do a little research on what is generally considered to be "outstanding" audio engineering and audio production. They give grammys for those types of things.

http://www.recordproduction.com/hugh_padgham.htm

Here are some articles about the recording of Synchronicity:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar04/a ... tracks.htm

http://mixonline.com/recording/intervie ... ry_breath/

I think you also need to make sure you do not confuse the music, with the engineering or the production, all of which are very separate elements.

Here is a quote from Bob Ludwig about the remastering he recently did for the Police catalog on SACD (Super Audio CD). If you don't know who Bob Ludwig is, then I'd suggest a little research as well. I think he has a pretty good idea of what constitutes a good "mix" and great sound.

http://www.musictap.net/Interviews/Ludw ... rview.html

[quote]MusicTAP: The recent re-masters for The Police were wonderful to my ears. However, the later albums for The Police, and I’m talking the chronological order, seems to benefit a little less than the earlier (the first two albums) issues. It’s my feeling that there was a lot less going on in the first two albums than there is in the remaining catalogue. Is that an assessment that you would agree with? If so, why would that be?

Bob Ludwig: I agree with you. The reason the recent albums don’t experience as much improvement is that Hugh Padgham mixed them and he did near-perfect mixes! What’s to fix?[/quote]

YMMV.

[Wait and See]

I understand fully that it is a very professional recording. However, there is a point where, when you attempt to achieve a "perfect" sound, you crush all the life out of the track. Many people prefer "lo-fi" or "indie" recordings for that reason-- because a more naturalistic approach that allows for some mistakes gives you a more "live" sounding record that better reflects the energy of the musicians. They may well have been recording on cheaper equipment on the first two albums, but they have infinitely more energy and "excitement" in their sound than Synchronicity does, IMO. Part of that is due to the songs and the way they were played, but a lot of it has to do with the way it was recorded.

[Spec A!]

And also don't forget what the ever increasing tension in the band did as well. I certainly think that shows through in GITM and Synchronicity. The first couple of albums- everyone was happy and had that feeling that it was AWESOME to get your music professionally recorded and see something become of it. By GITM, yeah they had certainly moved up the recording industry food chain but they were already drifting apart.

[blueboy]

I know what you are saying, and why you prefer the stripped down and raw feel of the earlier albums....I'm just trying to make the point that the change in the later albums was not due to poor engineering or production.

A lot of what you are missing is due to the fact that there was less "live" playing as a band, and more of an artistic layering approach using overdubs on the later albums.

The early Beatles stuff had a lot of great energy as well because they had no choice but to play everything live...but the fact that they "constructed" Sgt. Peppers doesn't make it any less of an album, or inferior to their early stuff.

Both approaches are valid, and have their good and bad points. They are just different, and you have your personal preference. I like them both...but I prefer the sound quality of the later albums.

[Wait and See]

I should probably add that the CDs I have are the 5 original albums remastered by the guy in the last article, released in 2003, so he may be partly responsible for my impression. Still, I think it comes down to the mix, and primarily the rhythm section. On Zenyatta, Stewart's drums and Sting's bass are perfectly locked in, and they punch the speakers like a single fist. The best examples are probably "When the World is Running Down" and "Voices Inside My Head", but it goes for the whole album-- "Shadows in the Rain", "Man in a Suitcase", etc.

On Ghost, the sound is definitely more "open" and "bigger", but the band doesn't sound nearly as tight. Obviously, "Magic" is known to have been mostly comprised of a demo Sting did on his own, but the whole album has what to me is a looser, sloppier feel. Sting's bass also sounds very muddy. There can be any number of explanations for it. It may well be that they started going crazy with overdubs. Synchronicity, as I said above, sounds kind of dead and lifeless to me. Padgham mentions in one of the articles that he was fanatically obsessed with eliminating noise, which I take as a validation of what my ears tell me.

I suspect one factor on Zenyatta is that they used considerably more compression toward the end of the chain. I think the real measure of whether you've got the rhythm section right is whether it makes you want to move your body to the music. I get more of that feel...the tight groove...on Zenyatta than on any of their other albums.

Maybe the best way to put it is that on the first three albums, they sound like a band. On the last two, they sound kind of like session musicians. Part of that is obviously due to what was going on between them, but I think the producer had something to do with it as well.

[blueboy]

[quote="Wait and See"]... I think the producer had something to do with it as well.[/quote]

Yes...he did exactly what they (or perhaps mainly Sting) wanted. That's what good engineer's and producers do.

I find your comment about Synchronicity amusing though...as Zenyatta is clearly the most "pre-packaged Pop for the Top 40 masses" album. Synchronicity may have ended up being played more in the Top 40, but the sound and musical approach was far more sophisticated, artsy and esoteric than anything else in the Top 40 at the time.

Zenyatta was my first real Police album, and was my favourite for a long time. I couldn't understand why even the band said that it wasn't their best work...but now after many years, and after learning all about how that came about, I can understand where they are coming from. There was an awful lot of filler on there....but it was great to listen to.