DRUMMERS: Heel Up or Heel Down?

[Chatchka]

Ah, I was taught that with the heel up, the resting position (when not kicking) for the beater is against the head. So, when resting, Heel up = toe down, beater is forward against head. Each "kick" is a lift and stomp of the toe, which sounds cumbersome, but as I am playing feels quite natural. That might take away some of the discomfort of feeling like your knee is hanging out in thin air.

To Gina's point, I definitely am having to develop greater strength and balance the more I bring in the highhat. Particularly when lifting both legs simultaneously. BUT, the strength need/gain is in the core, not just the hip flexors and quads. Luckily, I got the nice throne upgrade a while back. Roc n Soc nitro lift something or other. You kind of sink in and it is wider than those wobbly, round thrones so it is easier to stay in the saddle. Similar to this one>> http://www.samash.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... rySA-10001

1) Throne height (parallel or very slightly lower than knee) My throne has a little bounce to it, so it varies depending on my groove.
2) Thigh angle (parallel)
3) Calf angle (perpendicular to floor)
4) Ball of foot as positioned on pedal. (midway or more forward on pedal to accommodate slight slide foward on multiple hits in quick succession)
5) Toe or ball of foot? (When you press the pedal, do you curl your toes with or away from the action of the pedal.) (My toe rests on the pedal as evenly as possible. When I lift, I lead with my heel, without really thinking about my toe. I suppose that at the top of the stroke only the tips of my toes are on the pedal and broader contact happens on the downstroke.)

Another consideration is the distance of your throne from the drums. And the angle of your upper body. Again, just one person's perspective, but I keep the throne in close, but not so close that I can't sit up really straight, leaning a little forward so that I'm sitting on my "sit" bones. Kind of like the difference between riding styles -- western vs. English -- I guess (not a rider).

[GinaSuperCat]

Cheers, I just saw the Parliament reference in the poll this time <grin>

I really don't wait to read any more Kant today...I just Kant take it <guffaw> Only one hour and sixteen minutes to go left for my library group consultations <cheer>

As the others have said, the crux of heel up or down distinction is basically whether you punch down with the top of the foot (ball, here, not toes, for me) using power of the quads, or play flat footed with the fulcrum in your ankle, largely the calf as the power source.

That nice feathering of the bass drum on the quarter notes you hear in jazz is an example of heel down's elegance.

What you described above that you are doing sounds basically heel up. For me I was taught to set the throne for a 90 degree leg position.

The only time I actually lift my leg (what you are identifying at 'knees up'), where the fulcrum of the action is basically at the hip, is for sloshy extra immoral sounding hi hats, haha, which I like...

Or dancing to ska--Knees Up! <grin>

HAH, Chatch--do you happen to do Pilates as well? Posture is essential, definitely...Kinda in a roundabout way of being topical I just recently learned how to do full pushups on my toes. Long arms and low upper body strength seemed to doom me to always doing them from the knees. But the breakthrough occurred to me when I realized just how much of it depends on the core strength, not just upper body. Now I can do it!

[TheEqualizer]

Mmmmm. Extra immoral sounding hihats. Yummy.

[Chatchka]

Pi-lattes?! Is that some fancy-pants coffee drink? Nah, I mostly drink beer or hot tea.

Oh, Oh, Pilates. I understand now. Yes and No, I do some yoga/pilates now and then, pretty much anything to try to reduce the baby belly. I couldn't do the push up until I started the yoga. I know it is cliched, especially here, but yoga really is a great work out.

If I have to prioritize my free (hah!) time, I spend it on the drums. So it is more like Drumlates for me. Drumaste!


ETA: Can we please talk about this stuff, any of it, all day. My work, as thankful as I am to have it, is boring me today.

ETA 2: This is probably as good a place/time as any to admit that I bought the SC snare this week. I could make a bawdy comment about how that feels between the knees, but I'll leave that alone so that this doesn't turn into a floozy-lust-jack-free-for-all.

As much as I have wanted one, I have to admit I was a tiny bit skeptical about whether it would make a difference in my playing. For instance, would my ear be sophisticated enough for it to be worthwhile. It has more than lived up to its promise. The sound quality is unmistakeable. Unfortunately, it didn't come with a big box of "plays just like Stewart" but it makes me want to play more often and for longer. I totally love it. I had fallen off the rehearsal/rudiment wagon for a bit, and now I'm back on.

Of course, I popped its cherry by playing along (sort of) with the Maestro. It only seemed right.

[Spec A!]

ANTHONY SMASH!

or, I play mostly heel up, but some heel down. My feet dance all over the pedals, the balance comes from my fat ass so my legs can go where they want. I'd like to have my bass drum a little closer than it is (and be smaller/shallower), but my toms can't be configured the way I want so my calf is not 100% perpendicular to the floor, knee is angled a teeny bit. I've learned to live with it for too long now.

Everyone has pretty much said what needs to be said- find what's comfy for you. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but the beater tension shouldn't be overlooked as well. Most pedals now have crazy mounts of adjustment so it may take a little bit of tinkering to get your pedal feel matched to your comfort with the least amount of noise possible for your neighbors. Good luck, don't get caught!

[Tamadude]

[quote="plutonic"]YO,
I got a kit to practice on in my Apartment 3 weeks ago.

Despite the fact that this is an electronic kit, I've already gotten a note from the building about a drummer that the residents in my vicinity can't quite locate. [/quote]



This is brilliant.....the classic "mysterious, stealthy, catch-me-if-you-can" apartment drum scenario. I'd love to hear more of that drama, for sure.

Maybe a mesh head or a soft beater pad might help.

But Pluto, being the serious music aficionado that you are, surely they would come right to your door first, no? Don't you play your guitar there as well? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PloZVgNGdy0

As for heel positioning, it's up, down, and all around for this wookie. Some people go heel-up, foot down, with the beater resting on the head between beats. Do whatever makes you the most comfortable over a prolonged period (and sounds good ).

Great advice on here so far folks. Thanks!

[smudge]

I get what Dan's saying about the balance thing - but left foot is definitely heel down for me. You know the theory of a three cornered anything always being stable? Well - with a left heel, right butt cheek, and left butt cheek in contact with something reasonably solid at all times, I feel pretty secure. Helps to have a big butt

And thanks for (I think it was Chatchka's) clarification on the heel up thing. I'm playing heel up with ball of foot down on the pedal, and the beater resting on the (cheap electronic) drum pad when nothing's happening. So it's an 'up/down' for each stroke. Heel down, I was flubbing it every time, because pedal was neither up nor down to start with - and the degree of up or down varied. Messy.

My left foot is struggling. All three other limbs have twigged that this is just like playing piano - left leg got left out of that, and is interjecting at the wrong time, like a socially incompetant teenager at an elder sibling's party

Dan - re. your 'noise nuisance' problem. I'm on the ground floor, so less of a problem, but I'm about to Heath Robinson something together out of MDF that I can screw the pedal/pad assembly down to, and back it with rubber bath mat to lessen transmission of 'thump'. I'll let you know if it works. The rest of the kit just sounds like someone knitting rather agressively....

[Chatchka]

Bumping for pro info. HIT us with some good stuff, Maestro and Jeff.

Pluto, send me an email with your street address. I have something to send you that may help with the noise problem.

[Divemistress of the Dark]

Hmmm. Maybe I should try it next time I go visit one of you folks. It may be the one instrument that doesn't completely thwart me because I have freakishly small hands.

[Larissa]

As someone who's just dragged the other half's kit out of hibernation to have a whack at it, this thread is of great interest. Thanks guys.

[Johnny O]

Always have played with my heel down. Makes me feel more confident in finding the beat. Now, if you use heel down, have you ever got that top of your foot/ankle cramp while you were playing? Bah!

[plutonic]

[quote="Johnny O"]
Always have played with my heel down. Makes me feel more confident in finding the beat. Now, if you use heel down, have you ever got that top of your foot/ankle cramp while you were playing? Bah!
[/quote]

This is an important observation of HEEL DOWN:

The physical trouble with "Heel Down" it seems to me, is when you DON'T want to rest the beater on the head. I DO NOT want to rest the beater on the head. I want that drum to go BOOOM (beater smacks and rebounds) not BLOP (Beater smacks and stays).

It would, in fact, be really preferrable to be able to make it make either sound. But I can do BLOP easily. (Pluto SMASH!) So figuring out BOOOM is what I'm after.

It's figuring out how to do this easily, ergonomically, and thus, most comfortably, that I am after.

Here's what I *think* Johnny is talking about, and what I'm talking about:

If you play heel down, and you want BOOM, not BLOP, you are always curling the toes back/lifting the foot ever so slightly. One does this in order to ensure that the beater is not on the head. You have to make sure your foot isn't weighing down the pedal, so you consciously or unconsciously lift the foot or toe a little bit, all the time. Hence top of foot/front of shin cramp. For pros, this has RSI (repetitive stress injury) written all over it.

I could see maybe getting back of calf cramps with Heel Up.

I have a similar ergonomic problem with HEEL UP.

Drummers describe the knee floating, or the heel floating, or what have you. I don't understand that point, as it does not jibe with my understanding of gravity. My knee does not float. If I want my heel in the air, my knee has to be lifted by my abs and my psoas muscles. (Psoas is awesome muscle.)

I'm with Chatchka. Yoga/Core stuff necessary for drummers. I'm actually hoping to substitute drumming for going to the gym. Whenever possible, I want to be making music. But I digress.

Floating doesn't just happen, you have to make it happen, and I can see getting physically fit enough to make that float happen. However, it doesn't make sense to me in terms of physical efficiency to have that heavy thigh of mine lifted in the air most of the time in order to have HEEL UP. I'm doing work for no reason. Bad.

So a combination of heel up/down seems to me to be the most efficient.
Let me show you what I mean.

X = note.
O = rest.

Here are some typical rock 1/8 kick patterns.


1)
XOOOXXOO
2)
XOOXXOOO
3)
XOOXXOOX
4)
XXOXXXOX ( Stewart at So Lonely Climax pattern )


With the exception of the last insane pattern, the other patterns have no music either half of the time or more. If I'm HEEL UP, then I'm still working on those rests. I don't want to work on the rests. I want to rest on the rests.


So I'm thinking that I'd play those patterns thusly. Let me know what you think, oh ye drum gods.

U= Heel Up
D= Heel Down

[quote="Johnny O"]
Always have played with my heel down. Makes me feel more confident in finding the beat. Now, if you use heel down, have you ever got that top of your foot/ankle cramp while you were playing? Bah!
[/quote]

This is an important observation of HEEL DOWN:

The physical trouble with "Heel Down" it seems to me, is when you DON'T want to rest the beater on the head. I DO NOT want to rest the beater on the head. I want that drum to go BOOOM (beater smacks and rebounds) not BLOP (Beater smacks and stays).

It would, in fact, be really preferrable to be able to make it make either sound. But I can do BLOP easily. (Pluto SMASH!) So figuring out BOOOM is what I'm after.

It's figuring out how to do this easily, ergonomically, and thus, most comfortably, that I am after.

Here's what I *think* Johnny is talking about, and what I'm talking about:

If you play heel down, and you want BOOM, not BLOP, you are always curling the toes back/lifting the foot ever so slightly. One does this in order to ensure that the beater is not on the head. You have to make sure your foot isn't weighing down the pedal, so you consciously or unconsciously lift the foot or toe a little bit, all the time. Hence top of foot/front of shin cramp. For pros, this has RSI (repetitive stress injury) written all over it.

I could see maybe getting back of calf cramps with Heel Up.

I have a similar ergonomic problem with HEEL UP.

Drummers describe the knee floating, or the heel floating, or what have you. I don't understand that point, as it does not jibe with my understanding of gravity. My knee does not float. If I want my heel in the air, my knee has to be lifted by my abs and my psoas muscles. (Psoas is awesome muscle.)

I'm with Chatchka. Yoga/Core stuff necessary for drummers. I'm actually hoping to substitute drumming for going to the gym. Whenever possible, I want to be making music. But I digress.

Floating doesn't just happen, you have to make it happen, and I can see getting physically fit enough to make that float happen. However, it doesn't make sense to me in terms of physical efficiency to have that heavy thigh of mine lifted in the air most of the time in order to have HEEL UP. I'm doing work for no reason. Bad.

So a combination of heel up/down seems to me to be the most efficient.
Let me show you what I mean.

X = note.
O = rest.

Here are some typical rock 1/8 kick patterns.


1)
XOOOXXOO
DOOOUDOO

2)
XOOXXOOO
DOOUDOOO

3)
XOOXXOOX
DOOUDOOU

4)
XXOXXXOX
UDOUUDOU


On all rest beats, HEEL DOWN.

PLUTO SMASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sockii]

I'm loving this thread so far.

I've been horribly lazy with practicing for months, but I HAVE been starting to do some serious core/pilates workouts. Now I'm going to be curious to see if that's improved my stability at all for trying to play heel-up.

HMMMMM.......

[Spec A!]

After a little more thought, my knee/thigh totally floats all the time. IOW there is no rest, and I guess this is what I mean by dancing. I have my heel up I'd say 98/99 % of the time, but I play a combination of flexing my ankle AND using my knee/thigh/whole leg. My legs are constantly bouncing (take a look at any of my youtube vids) which I guess is providing alot of the power, but the finesse comes from the ankle movements in conjunction with the whole leg.

I don't think my beater ever rests, especially on the head. Although I've never given it much thought till now.

[DirtyMartini]

I could be way off, but would it be a bit like driving a car? Your foot never rests with its weight on the gas pedal, and when you first learn to drive, you can't believe it will ever be possible to keep your knee bent and leg afloat all the time. But after a while you figure out how to adjust the seat to make it the most comfortable, learn how much or how little pressure can be applied at a "rest" state, and just get used to it.